Curse

LifeInfusion · Jan 02, 2011, 08:31 PM // 20:31

was looking through my skill templates that I have saved from random monks...

Aura of Faith seems ok actually (on paper), you just can't pump DF since you more or less need Gift of Health (Dismiss is roughly an orison, assuming you are doing 14 prot: 71 health or 67 [email protected] prot ...which is orison at 14). Unlike with ZB-Gift bars, it's not as energy intensive albeit very prone to enchantment removal. Also, the duration on Aura of Faith means you need to Heal right after you cast it...

A few bars I found in my pile of random people's bars:
OwAT0wHDVKHkgYTTg4uqeY6TmAA

12 Prot, 10 DF, 8 heal (rune unknown)

Seed of Life
Aura of Faith (At 12, 90% more heal, 40% less damage but you have runes so it's more than that)
Dismiss condition (anywhere from 67 to 71 base heal)
Guardian (redundant with a ST rit, honestly. I would slot Gift here)
SoA (needs 14 prot to see any gains)
Prot spirit (redundant with a ST rit)
Cure Hex (small heal actually)
Rebirth (kind of pointless, Selfless Spirit might be better here to reduce the energy strain of AoF)

Dismiss @13 with AoF @13 would allow you to attain 73+129 from 12DF which is the equivalent of 157 on a 14DF UA. This is easily attainable with Patient Spirit or Ethereal Light or Gift of Health @10 on a 14DF UA.
Gift @9 with AoF at 13 would allow you to attain 73+185 from 12DF which is a fair sized heal, the equivalent of 213 on a 14DF UA. 10 Heal Gift is 165 on 14DF UA bar or 171 on 16 DF hat swap for casting UA. This would be a very good change to the bar, replacing Guardian.

Another bar I found which is much more energy intensive, reminiscent of boonprot:
OwAT0mHDZSmgjIHkg4uam4FseAA

12 Prot/12 DF/3 Heal , runes unknown

Rebirth (why is this in slot 1? I usually put my power heal here for easy access)
Divine Boon (this is around 54 to 57 heal, could pull off 63 with superior hat swap) --> GWWiki says "The healing bonus is applied before Divine Favor, but not before Divine Boon." making this pretty lame. I tested casting AoF under Divine Boon and I got 98+63 with 16DF + 13 Prot which suggests this is true. 122+98 from every consecutive cast.
Seed of Life
Aura of Faith
SoA (doesn't benefit from 13+ prot since it has 6 seconds up until 14 which has 7 seconds)
Reversal of Fortune (I've used this in PvE before, it's difficult to pull off unless you can pre-prot like a pro)
Selfless Spirit
Prot Spirit (honestly anything more than 17 or so seconds is a waste in my opinion since with an enchant mod that's 20 seconds)

Using a hat swap to attain 16 DF for Divine Boon, and then swapping back to 12+1+1=14 DF means AoF heals 87+63, and 122+87 thereafter. That's "not too shabby" considering the damage reduction as well, making just casting the heal the equivalent of 105 for 6 energy (3 if under Selfless Spirit) and 164 thereafter. However, unlike with Burst/WoH/HB/etc. you can't mimicry UA since you would only have 2 pips of energy.
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The window for heals on AoF is rather small (3 seconds, 4 if you have 20% enchant mod...Blessed Aura would bump it to 5 probably) and a recharge of 8 seconds is really lacking.
The 40-44% ish damage reduction is roughly +30-35ish Armor against normal attacks.

Has anyone ran this elite successfully? It doesn't seem very powerful when you already have prots and the duration is really prohibitive. There's a severe shortage of party heals other than seed of life as well. An ER Ele could outdo the heal boost by pure heal power and all the prots, except against armor ignoring DPS stuff that necessitates something like SoA/Seed, neither of which require AoF as an elite.

I think I might suggest a change to it on GW feedback, but I'm unsure on how to make it better without making it ridiculous. Longer duration would be a start most likely, since shorter recharge would just allow you to plop in on everyone casually. It's an interesting skill because unlike the other Prot elites (Divert hexes, RC, ZB, Shield of Regen, Shield of Deflection, Mark of Protection, Air of Enchantment, Life Barrier, Life sheath, Amity), it's not redbar or passive (fine, Life Sheath isn't really passive but it's hard to justify using it over reversal of Fortune or RC). It's the epitome of pre-prot.

It's already hard to justify bringing high prot for ZB when you can run Healing Burst/Word of Healing with marginal prot. AoF+ small prot of choice (RoF, Guardian) is 10 energy, so the synergy I see is with a Restor Rit or another monk that is running heals (aka every monk in the meta that is running UA/HB/Burst/WoH).

xhappy feetx · Jan 02, 2011, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Yes, we use it to fight against Invoke Spike

LifeInfusion · Jan 02, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by xhappy feetx

Yes, we use it to fight against Invoke Spike

Got a video of this?

I could see that it's probably the best course of action against caster spike, but isn't Prot spirit/Spirit bond enough?

I mean, if someone is getting spiked, it is likely they will be enchant stripped/shattered too, making its enchantment status a liability.

FallenAngel_ · Jan 02, 2011, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I run aura of faith + mimiced UA.. one prot monk other healing
Dismiss condition, SoA, Prot Spirit, SoL

xhappy feetx · Jan 02, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Got a video of this?

I could see that it's probably the best course of action against caster spike, but isn't Prot spirit/Spirit bond enough?

I mean, if someone is getting spiked, it is likely they will be enchant stripped/shattered too, making its enchantment status a liability.

Nope I wish I did, when people run Invoke Spike RC is useless anyways because they don't have deepwound and RC doesn't cast fast enough, AoF recharge is the same as invoke, and most Invokes will pre-strip the target as opposed to stripping in conjunction with the spike so it works really well.

LifeInfusion · Jan 02, 2011, 10:24 PM // 22:24

So I guess it's better than Prot spirit/Spirit Bond in the sense that it is energy efficient (5 energy versus 10)?

The duration is really short (3-4 seconds is nothing against melee and damage reduction doesn't ruin adrenaline gain), so outside of a literal caster spike I think Weapon of warding/Weapon of shadow would work better (triple melee, balanced, etc.) simply because they can't be shattered.

EDIT: I guess it is much more viable in PvP since you don't have the ridiculous party heals (UA + DH/HD, HB+UA+ Heal Party) and party prots such as Save Yourselves!, TNTF!. ST rits are used though and interrupting spirits doesn't mean squat when they recharge instantly and cost 0. Similarly, Healing Burst sees play.

Wenspire · Jan 02, 2011, 11:41 PM // 23:41

The second build you listed is the one I created (right down to skill order) and use 90% of the time when monking. 15DF, 14Prot and 4Heal. Superior DF rune, minor Heal/Prot if I remember correctly. I normally also run Restore Life instead of Rebirth, but may bring the latter depending on area.

It's primarily meant to be a full prot setup and not for redbarring. Boon is only used when I will be needing the extra healing to support the other monk when there is a lot of pressure, and only when Selfless Spirit is running. I disable it after Selfless runs out usually. The build pretty much benefits the most from having short cast time spells. Daze pretty much doesn't affect build short of SoA. RoF is also good for initial cover over Prot Spirit.

But regarding AoF, besides the damage reduction (which also reduces armor-ignoring damage) it also turns the follow-up heal into a super heal (around 400 from an Eth Light/HB combo, etc). The follow-up normally comes from the other healing monk.

LifeInfusion · Jan 02, 2011, 11:45 PM // 23:45

That's pretty risky, running Superior runes permanently... I suppose it isn't as bad with cons, but I ride 570HP on my monk (running blessed, 20% enchant spear).

Anyway you are in my "creative people folder" then :P

I have skill setup 3 folders, 1 for builds I have used and tested, one for things that other people run that are complete fail to remind myself not to be terrible (lots of UA orison spam in here and one bar with heal other+jamei's gaze+healing ribbon on an HB bar), and one for builds that seem to work decently but aren't accepted as meta (creative people folder).

Wenspire · Jan 02, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Ya. I normally don't like using a Superior rune, myself. My healing builds do not use one. But since I am in control of the Prot Spirit, I don't feel as vulnerable. I also position myself far enough from the group but close enough where I can reach everyone with my spells. I also don't like using cons and usually give my sets away for xmas presents.

But regarding the question you asked intially, I like AoF how it is. The duration is short, but the benefits to it I think are great if you play smart and not something that's overpowered requiring no skill to use.

Boogz · Jan 03, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Personally, I like this bar on AoF: OwYT023CRamIMigYTTgIH8uCZAA

RoF/gift/AoF/dismiss/guardian/SoL/SoA/GolE

usually I don't bring PS, I use AoF -> RoF/dismiss/SoA instead and let the other hero heal coupled with some hex removal skils. I let GolE there becouse I never bring a blood ritual necro hench, so I always run some energy management skills, although bringing a BR nero would be nice, you culd run SH over GolE or add SB

on that boonprot bar, seriously, get rid of rebirth, completely pointless there. bring mend or dismiss condition for another heal via divine boon, its always useful. You could scrap selfless spirit on the bar if you're willing to birng a BR necro, personally I'd bring guardian or shielding hands.

Wenspire · Jan 03, 2011, 01:26 AM // 01:26

As I mentioned above, the type of rez is there depending on area. Also, Boon isn't in effect most of the time; just during heavy pressure situations.

I find Shielding Hands really doesnt do enough in HM. Guardian has a nice recharge. However, it only helps vs attacks and does nothing vs spells. If I must bring something vs attacks I'd rather go with Aegis for party-wide coverage.

I never bring, ask or rely on secondary EN management (Blood Ritual). If someone brings it, it's just a nice plus for me. That bar works well as-is for managing EN. The duration-based enchants are there so you can regen EN while they are in effect (SoA and Seed mainly) and find that most of the time it is not necessary to even cast Selfless. However, it is nice to have in those emergency situations.

AndroBubbles · Jan 03, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Aura of Faith is my staple prot elite right now. It's best when used to actually pre prot damage, rather than trying to save a target and boost the healing on it.

Xenomortis · Jan 03, 2011, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Aura of Faith:
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3 seconds, target ally gains 50...90...100% more Health when healed and takes 5...41...50% less damage.

So, this boosts a heal and prevents damage. It prevents a fair amount of damage, but not for too long.
It could probably be used on someone at around 50% and still taking damage and then followed up by a heal.

My immediate reaction is compare it to Word of Healing on a standard hybrid bar. AoF essentially boosts one heal to the same level as WoH - you really can't depend on outside heals and you probably won't have time to get 2 heals on (Gift + Dismiss maybe, but then you're taking two heals). You've also spent more energy than the cost for one Word.

When someone is close to death, you won't have time to use AoF + Heal and so you depend on a weaker heal.

Is this worth an extra, short lived prot? Do we actually even gain anything by taking AoF?

So, let's do some direct build comparisons against a WoH bar:
The following is my standard WoH bar:
12+1+1/2 Healing
9+1 Prot
9+1 DF
WoH, Reversal of Fortune, Cure Hex, Shield of Absorption, Prot Spirit, Aegis, Seed of Life, Glyph of Lesser Energy

I'm going to make a few assumptions before I do make comparisons:

1. What the build is going to be pitted against is fairly hard for a regular PUG doing the Zaishen quests. By that, I mean the situation is liable to go south quite easily and where you need to use your skills fairly well - think Vloxen HM (or Slaver's to a stronger extreme) or perhaps something like Rragar's. I would not consider most missions in this category. In effect, I want it to be somewhat important what it is you're running.

2. There is no ST Rit, ER Ele or Imbagon (or any other power protter)* in your team. These make running any heavily prot oriented bar that doesn't utilise Restore Condition or Divert Hexes very questionable.
*Physicals just carrying Save Yourselves don't count.

3. You have not built a team to deal with the area. I cannot take this into account - everything is made to be fairly general.

4. You cannot depend on someone else to save a team mate from death - this stems from a more personal preference: a general monk build that is not part of some greater setup should be fairly autonomous.

No assumption will be made about the builds of partnering monks - although in a PuG situation one could be expected to be running some trashy heal build.

Now, for the builds listed in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

12 Prot, 10 DF, 8 heal (rune unknown)
Seed of Life, Aura of Faith, Dismiss condition, Guardian, SoA, Prot spirit, Cure Hex, Rebirth

I'll ignore comments regarding ST rits and such, since my assumptions void them.
Guadian vs Aegis is situational based - in 4-man areas I say Guardian, 6-man Aegis if mobs are large or you're lazy. Aegis in 8-man areas and following assumption 1, I definitely say Aegis. Let's say that build has Aegis over Guardian.
Rebirth is a waste, let's assume it's replaced with some form of energy management (I like GoLE with two 10e spells I like to use, Selfless otherwise).
The two builds are now quite comparable - the difference being AoF+Dismiss vs WoH+RoF
Dismiss cannot be used as a go-to heal - it's too weak to really make a difference when you need it and is conditional anyway. It can be used as a secondary heal, but as your only one it would make me very nervous. AoF boosts it to at best, just over 200 (depending on spec) I would say. WoH heals for a bit under 250 (when you need it to). WoH is definitely stronger than the healing aspect of AoF+Dismiss in pretty much every way (energy, recharge, time spent, amount healed). Is AoF really that good in the protection aspect that it's worth losing a far superior option to saving someone? RoF can be used on WoH's recharge if several people are being hit - what do you have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Rebirth, Divine Boon, Seed of Life, Aura of Faith, SoA, Reversal of Fortune, Selfless Spirit, Prot Spirit

It's hard to not dismiss this as mere junk. Let's replace Rebirth with pretty much anything. If you think energy holds up with just Selfless then take Gift, otherwise take another energy management skill.
Because it'll make it more favourable, I'll assume energy holds fine (I sincerely doubt it will) and you can take Gift of Health. Divine Boon turns your prots into reasonable heals - you'll be healing for around 100 normally. Gift I expect would be healing for around 150 and with AoF, you have a decent spike heal - unfortunately it suffers from the problem of being to slow to save someone who needs it. If energy really did hold up on this with only Selfless (it won't), then you might have something workable here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

RoF/gift/AoF/dismiss/guardian/SoL/SoA/GolE

Standard criticism first: GoLE is wasted on that bar - it only works well with 10e+ spells otherwise you gain a mere 5e. Selfless is much stronger for you.
You have two heals, but one doubles up as a bit of cleaning. My advice it to ditch RoF and bring a hex removal. Also, as per my assumptions I believe Aegis is stronger, but then I've reduced the build to something I've already covered.

Generally, I think this isn't worth it over a WoH Hybrid. Sure, it'll work most of the time - it may even work in every area a WoH bar works.

A small note on my thoughts on RoF:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Reversal of Fortune (I've used this in PvE before, it's difficult to pull off unless you can pre-prot like a pro)

When I use this skill, it is not to try and get a good heal out of it. This is a skill that I use when I need Word of Healing, but it's on recharge.
RoF, in my experience, can be read as "For 2 seconds, target ally's health bar does not drop". I use it to delay death long enough for WoH to recharge. For this purpose it beats a secondary heal most of the time due to it's unconditional nature and the fact it's out in a quarter of a second. It fails if the target is taking very heavy pressure, but then the target needs more than anything you can provide in the required time-frame.

Edit:
Did any of what I just write make sense? It ended up far longer than I intended.

LifeInfusion · Jan 03, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Well Xeno, the point of the thread was not what I think. I think it needs a slight buff to be competitive, that's why I asked if anyone has ran it successfully.

The above two bars are bars I have seen played in Hard Mode ( haven't played them myself).

You didn't really address the AoF+gift vs WoH hybrid completely... the AoF bar lacks the recharge of WoH, but it heals for more than WoH even <50% (WoH is 203+DF and on a hybrid the DF will be lower than 12). Gift heals 213 + DF, which is a sizeable heal.

Then again, pumping prot doesn't boost SoA by much (1 second), Prot Spirit lasts a few seconds longer. It does make dismiss a better heal.

As far as suggestions go, I would like to see it work like Guardian/Shield of Deflection for spell/armor ignoring damage... so 5 energy, 1/4 cast, 4 or 6 recharge.

Quote:

Has anyone ran this elite successfully? It doesn't seem very powerful when you already have prots and the duration is really prohibitive.

Xenomortis · Jan 03, 2011, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Well Xeno, the point of the thread was not what I think. I think it needs a slight buff to be competitive, that's why I asked if anyone has ran it successfully.

Well ok, but at least by highlighting the flaws compared to the competition you might have some clue as to where buffs need to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

You didn't really address the AoF+gift vs WoH hybrid completely... the AoF bar lacks the recharge of WoH, but it heals for more than WoH even <50%. Gift heals 213 + DF, which is a sizeable heal.

No I didn't, I'm too tired right now. However I sincerely think the recharges and general timings are much more significant than the heal numbers when you reach over 200.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Then again, pumping prot doesn't boost SoA by much (1 second), Prot Spirit lasts a few seconds longer. It does make dismiss a better heal.

The longer SoA is sort of nice. A 5 second longer Prot Spirit (comparing rank 10 to rank 13 and a 20% enchant mod) is nice, but that's a feeling I get from playing prot bars and isn't significant.

Luminarus · Jan 03, 2011, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Pve it doesnt work... a short duration prot like that needs far more either power (eg target other shadow form for 3 seconds), or far lesser recharge to be worth it. Otherwise HB and UA overpower it. Its primary benefit the heal boost is generally wasted due to it being a prot elite, and HB and UA effect everyone as they are a caster based boost rather then an individual based boost.

Pvp on the other hand is a different story. On the prot monk iirc the most commonly used elites are (or atleast were) RC, LS, PnH. If you arent facing a team with high conditions or hexes then they arent worth alot, on top of that if you are doubled up with a WoH on a target below 50% thats give or take a 350 heal for 10 energy.

For a couple of weeks after its buff I used it successfully in RA, but that was before the WoH buff (again iirc), and at a time when prots where actually worthwhile and powerhealing was a considered a joke. Ran a Mo/A build with it, pretty sure it was just post eotn release:

Aura, Dismiss, Patient Spirit, Guardian, Cure Hex, Return, Dark Escape and probably spirit bond.

Wasnt bad in RA, but was definately not as good as ZB or WoH, its a support elite designed to interact spectacularly with other strong heals, which are severely limited due to its attribute line, and elite status. Swap it to DF and it will be very strong on heal or smite monks, possibly OP.

Wenspire · Jan 03, 2011, 08:10 AM // 08:10

In pve aof is best used on a designated protect setup along with a designated healing partner. I don't think it works well as a hybrid setup. In most instances you really only need one red bar pusher if you have a competent person doing the protecting. An example would be using an st-rit and an hb monk.

If you intend to judge an aof-build based on how high of numbers you see, you will be disappointed. In my opinion, aof works best as a build designed to prevent damage and not heal damage already taken.

I apologize for any typos. On mobile device at the moment.

AndroBubbles · Jan 03, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01

My current PvE bar is as follows:

Prot: 12+1+1
DF: 12+1

Aura of Faith, Seed of Life, Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, Aegis, Optional, Optional, Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Now, in the event that I'm with a PuG, I'll usually bring both dismiss and a hex removal. In the event that I'm confident in my partner's abilities, or if I'm running with Sabway heroes, I'll drop the condition or hex removal as appropriate for something like Air of Superiority.

The key to running AoF is to learn how AI reacts to your allies, and to preprot them accordingly. I'll often start a fight by casting protective spirit on a likely squishy target before-hand, then following it with GoLE+another Prot Spirit+Aegis. Aura of Faith is amazing because not only does it protect against damage, it enhances the other skills on your bar, making them many times more effective. Take shield of absorption. I'll cast it on my target as it starts taking damage, and if I know there will be large packets, I'll follow it with Aura. With an enchanting mod, this cuts the damage my target receives by almost 50% for about four seconds, giving SoA ample time to rack up huge numbers in maximum protection potential. With seed of life, your target is basically spirit bonded, only a bit more safely and with added benefit to your party. In the event that it recharges at an appropriate time, I'll cast it on a target that I've been maintaining so that my healing counterpart can get higher numbers.

I'll admit, it took some getting used to, since Aura of Faith is something that plays well to proactive play while still rewarding some degree of reactive play, but I honestly don't run anything else in PvE anymore unless the situation specifically calls for it. Plus, it's wicked fun to use.

Xenomortis · Jan 03, 2011, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

My current PvE bar is as follows:

Prot: 12+1+1
DF: 12+1

Aura of Faith, Seed of Life, Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, Aegis, Optional, Optional, Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Now, in the event that I'm with a PuG...

...

So you run near zero healing? When things head south you have very little ability to prevent the inevitable outcome. That depends greatly on a partnering monk.
And I don't see why AoF grants more control over a situation - at best it boosts a single prot and a single heal (which you may not have) every 8 seconds, or acts as a small prot itself.
I can't see this greatly affecting the outcome of a situation, certainly not in the way some of your other, non-elite skills would, or indeed in the way a single power heal like Word would.

Admittedly I have not tried running AoF. Justiciar Thommis is the bounty on the 7th - maybe I'll try it then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Swap it to DF and it will be very strong on heal or smite monks, possibly OP.

No it won't, for more or less the exact reasons I mentioned earlier. The spec is not the problem with this skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

In pve aof is best used on a designated protect setup along with a designated healing partner. I don't think it works well as a hybrid setup. In most instances you really only need one red bar pusher if you have a competent person doing the protecting. An example would be using an st-rit and an hb monk.

I've also formed the opinion that dedicating someone to pure prot with someone else on pure healing is a tremendously inefficient way of proceeding in PvE - the pure healing guy isn't the problem either, it's the pure prot guy (yes, the pure healing guy is silly too). An ER packs Infuse and an Imbagon deals some damage. An ST-Rit I'm not sure on, but it seems to pack enough to seemingly overcome the inefficiency (since the spirits affect everyone at once) but then you're still left with a single source of heals.
However, a Prot Monk simply cannot pack enough power to overcome that inefficiency.

Wenspire · Jan 03, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Then we will just have to disagree on this particular subject. The benefits I find in running a dedicated prot and dedicated healer are:

1) less chance of over-healing of same target
2) stronger Seed of Life for both monks (from having a higher spec'ed DF)
3) stronger heal skills from healer (higher spec Heal and DF) and stronger prot from prot monk (longer PS, stronger RoF)

You would probably see a situation where if an ally gets hit with a 300 point Lightning Orb, (random example) WoH can heal 215 of the damage so it's a good skill. However, I would see a situation where my AoF'ed target takes only 150 damage (from a 300 Orb) resulting in 150 less damage needing to be healed along with 50% of any other damage taken within that 4 second period.